In class today we discussed "The Tyger", a poem by William Blake. Some of us questioned whether the poem had Judeo-Christian roots, because the poem made a specific mention to "The Lamb." Brother Tom pointed out that this was not likely the case as Blake had written a poem entitled "The Lamb." Here is the poem reprinted in full:
Little Lamb who made thee
Dost thou know who made thee
Gave thee life & bid thee feed.
By the stream & o'er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing wooly bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice:
Little Lamb who made thee
Dost thou know who made thee
Little Lamb I'll tell thee,
Little Lamb I'll tell thee:
He is called by thy name,
For he calls himself a Lamb:
He is meek & he is mild,
He became a little child:
I a child & thou a lamb,
We are called by his name.
Little Lamb God bless thee.
Little Lamb God bless thee.
Despite Brother Tom's assertions that these are not religious poems, I still see religious elements. In an effort to rethink this poem without my personal biases, I would like another perspective. The purpose of this topic is to discuss this poem, "The Lamb," and in what ways, or to what extent, do it and "The Tyger" deviate from the religious context. What is this poem trying to say? Feel free to discuss other elements, such as the poem's form, meter, etc.- TRu-c Mar 11, 2008
There’s got to be some religious aspects in this poem. Even if Blake wasn’t specifically writing about a Judeo-Christian theme, there are definitely some religious elements. The whole part about the Lamb coming from another Lamb seems to resemble the whole Jesus as God’s begotten son. Even if it wasn’t influenced Judeo-Christian elements, plenty of other religions have creation stories based on one god creating another one from its own flesh and blood. I don’t see how a lamb could produce another lamb as offspring because I don’t think a lamb has reached sexual maturity. Thus, this creation of one lamb from another lamb points to some mythical or mystical creation, which then points to a religious concept or influence. - kli-c Mar 11, 2008
I agree that there is some reference to Jesus Christ in the poem because it says "he became a little child" and Jesus did become a child. Interesting obeservation, kle, I actually forgot that lamb cannot reproduce and knwoing that it shows that this poem is in fact talking about something mystical or religious. However, I can also see how this poem can be seen as secular. It could just be someone speaking to a lamb and asking if it knows where it came from, but this acually makes it even more religious because it could be interpreted as someone asking Christ where he came from. Any other ideas?
This poem is written in stanza also, correct? And similarly, the rhythm of both of them remind me of childhood, as briefly discussed in class. Coincidentally, the rhythm and rhyme remind me of a prayer I used to say before going to bed as a child. We never really discussed why Blake would make a poem to sound such, as I am sure he was aware of what he was doing. His illustrations even back this up. The one of The Lamb looks whimsical, like it is a page out of a storybook, and the one of The Tyger has the same effect. Br. Tom said in class that the tyger in the illustration looked like a lamb, but I think it looks more like a goldfish. At either standpoint, it looks afraid (sheepish, if you will). Why?
As far as religious allusions go, having heard plenty of biblical stories having to do with lambs, I'm not sure I can give an answer. Lamb and Jesus. They just fit. - KLe-c Mar 11, 2008
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that these were not "religious" poems, but I wanted to indicate that when we are speaking of William Blake we must take into account his very unconventional (at least for his time) views of religion. Wikipedia offers a quick view into some of those divergent notions HERE.- brtom Mar 11, 2008
I believe that Blake's "The Lamb" is much more religious than "The Tyger" is. The Tyger seems to be more off the wall in its imagery than the sweetness and Chrisltiness of the little lamb. I'm not exactly sure what the Tyger is supposed to symbolize, though. The creature itself should be a sign of fear and evil, and when taken literally that's exactly the feelings that it emits. However, when the image Blake drew is factored in, it makes the poem almost a comedy. This would take out the religious undertones in favor of a mocking tone, as the sheepish kitty is being asked if the creator of the Lamb also created him.- NVa-c Mar 11, 2008
I do not think that we can assume that when someone says something that has Christian meaning to it that it must be from our religion. In fact, there are countless similarities from one religion to the next, and it is very possible for another religion to refer to Jesus, or any prophet/ holy person as the Lamb. Yes, it very well could be Judeo-Christian, but I don't think it's fair to leave all the other religions out. If someone could tell me that we are the only religion to refer to Jesus as the Lamb, then I would gladly accept, but at this point, I just don't know. William Blake could just as well been a spiritual person who believes in God and used Lamb as a general term of his creation. I don't know. But then, why would he capitalize Lamb? Doesn't capitalizing it give it more significance? Catholics capitalize all God terms, is that why he capitalized it then? - cdu-c Mar 11, 2008
I don't see how you can interpret the Lamb without making the clear religious reference to Jesus Christ in the final stanza. I may be biased because my choir sang this beautiful poem as an equally beautiful song at Christmas time (reference to the He became a little child part), but I still find that religious aspect quite apparent. The poem is asking "Who made thee?" The answer that Blake appears to be giving us is God made thee, Jesus Christ as another lamb, the sacrificial lamb. The beginning is a wondering how the beauty and simple innocence of the lamb, just the in the "Tyger" poem, Blake wonders about the strength and might of the tiger. Again, "who made thee?" and again the reference to God as the lamb. I can understand if someone chose not to see the religious references in the Tyger but I don't think there is anyway to avoid those references in "The Lamb." - AHa-c Mar 11, 2008 I still have a hard time not seeing a religious aspect in either of these poems as being part of their message. First, Blake capitalized the word lamb. This makes me believe that he is referring to Christ as a lamb, not just a lamb as a symbol of innocence. What are other possible reasons for the capitalization of this word? Also the poem, “The Lamb” also has many religious reflections. It reflects a belief of some sort of God or higher power that made creation. This doesn’t necessarily mean that it is referring to the Judeo-Christian God, but from the very beginning religious aspects are implied. The title itself makes me believe that the author was referring to a specific object or person as a lamb, possibly Christ. I have a very difficult time walking away from these poems and not seeing the aspects of religion. It is possible for others to read these poems not see them, but I can’t help but notice them. If Blake had unconventional opinions of religion why would be use the lamb to refer to the poem, “The Lamb,” which has obvious religious views. Is he just trying to poke fun at the religious message in the poem? - bga-c Mar 11, 2008
I think that what Blake is doing is trying and succeeding at provoking people into thinking in religious terms. Both poems talk about wondering where and what brings life into being with one being about the beauty of the lamb and the other being about the ferociously powerful tiger. I think that Blake though isn't necessarily talking in religious terms, but is rather trying to grasp just how life comes into being and where it comes from. I think he just uses religious overtones as a tool to try and express his views at how such polar opposite creatures can come from the same God. What he is pointing out is that there exists tender creatures such as lambs, but also ferocious beasts like tigers who generally create havoc and destruction. I just think that in these poems Blake was trying to make sense of how a God who produces such beautiful creatures as Lambs can also produce such destructive animals as Tigers.- KRi-c Mar 12, 2008
Ok KRi I do see and understand your last point. I do agree that Blake is questioning how can God create two creature that are the complete opposites of each other, but I do think that there is more to the poem. I do think that their is an underlying religious them, and I believe that in some sense we can think of the Lamb as Jesus Christ. I mean Blake could simply be capitalizing the "L" in Lamb to place emphasis on the lamb in this poem, but I do believe it refers to Christ.
"For he calls himself a Lamb:
He is meek & he is mild,
He became a little child"
Could this possible be interpreted to mean something along the lines that God became a "little child" when Jesus was born meek and mild? Any other thoughts about this? - kva-c Mar 12, 2008
I'm going to go ahead and say that there are unmistakeable religious aspects of The Lamb. I mean, come on, they're really hard to miss. I'm sure someone could interpret the poem in a thousand different ways, but honestly, "For he calls himself a lamb"? Come on, you can't miss that. However, I'm really not seeing a lot of the same religious aspects in The Tyger. The Tyger seems to focus more on figuring out what made the Tyger's attitude and how he lived his life. Blake mentions a lot of physical things that coud've made the tyger end up acting and looking the way he did, but he only mentions once or twice the idea that God or a higher being made the tyger. Also, even though the idea of a higher being is mentioned in The Tyger, I still don't see that as being the point of the poem. The Lamb seems to most definitely be asking if the lamb realized that it was made by God, but The Tyger seems to honestly be questioning how on earth anything could create something like the tyger at all. - MRo-c Mar 12, 2008
I made a post here but it somehow got deleted. If you want to see what I wrote, you can go to history and click on the changes that were made after I posted. - PSp-c
Little Lamb who made thee
Dost thou know who made thee
Gave thee life & bid thee feed.
By the stream & o'er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing wooly bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice:
Little Lamb who made thee
Dost thou know who made thee
Little Lamb I'll tell thee,
Little Lamb I'll tell thee:
He is called by thy name,
For he calls himself a Lamb:
He is meek & he is mild,
He became a little child:
I a child & thou a lamb,
We are called by his name.
Little Lamb God bless thee.
Little Lamb God bless thee.
Despite Brother Tom's assertions that these are not religious poems, I still see religious elements. In an effort to rethink this poem without my personal biases, I would like another perspective. The purpose of this topic is to discuss this poem, "The Lamb," and in what ways, or to what extent, do it and "The Tyger" deviate from the religious context. What is this poem trying to say? Feel free to discuss other elements, such as the poem's form, meter, etc.-
There’s got to be some religious aspects in this poem. Even if Blake wasn’t specifically writing about a Judeo-Christian theme, there are definitely some religious elements. The whole part about the Lamb coming from another Lamb seems to resemble the whole Jesus as God’s begotten son. Even if it wasn’t influenced Judeo-Christian elements, plenty of other religions have creation stories based on one god creating another one from its own flesh and blood. I don’t see how a lamb could produce another lamb as offspring because I don’t think a lamb has reached sexual maturity. Thus, this creation of one lamb from another lamb points to some mythical or mystical creation, which then points to a religious concept or influence.
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I agree that there is some reference to Jesus Christ in the poem because it says "he became a little child" and Jesus did become a child. Interesting obeservation, kle, I actually forgot that lamb cannot reproduce and knwoing that it shows that this poem is in fact talking about something mystical or religious. However, I can also see how this poem can be seen as secular. It could just be someone speaking to a lamb and asking if it knows where it came from, but this acually makes it even more religious because it could be interpreted as someone asking Christ where he came from. Any other ideas?
This poem is written in stanza also, correct? And similarly, the rhythm of both of them remind me of childhood, as briefly discussed in class. Coincidentally, the rhythm and rhyme remind me of a prayer I used to say before going to bed as a child. We never really discussed why Blake would make a poem to sound such, as I am sure he was aware of what he was doing. His illustrations even back this up. The one of The Lamb looks whimsical, like it is a page out of a storybook, and the one of The Tyger has the same effect. Br. Tom said in class that the tyger in the illustration looked like a lamb, but I think it looks more like a goldfish. At either standpoint, it looks afraid (sheepish, if you will). Why?
As far as religious allusions go, having heard plenty of biblical stories having to do with lambs, I'm not sure I can give an answer. Lamb and Jesus. They just fit. -
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that these were not "religious" poems, but I wanted to indicate that when we are speaking of William Blake we must take into account his very unconventional (at least for his time) views of religion. Wikipedia offers a quick view into some of those divergent notions HERE.-
I believe that Blake's "The Lamb" is much more religious than "The Tyger" is. The Tyger seems to be more off the wall in its imagery than the sweetness and Chrisltiness of the little lamb. I'm not exactly sure what the Tyger is supposed to symbolize, though. The creature itself should be a sign of fear and evil, and when taken literally that's exactly the feelings that it emits. However, when the image Blake drew is factored in, it makes the poem almost a comedy. This would take out the religious undertones in favor of a mocking tone, as the sheepish kitty is being asked if the creator of the Lamb also created him.-
I do not think that we can assume that when someone says something that has Christian meaning to it that it must be from our religion. In fact, there are countless similarities from one religion to the next, and it is very possible for another religion to refer to Jesus, or any prophet/ holy person as the Lamb. Yes, it very well could be Judeo-Christian, but I don't think it's fair to leave all the other religions out. If someone could tell me that we are the only religion to refer to Jesus as the Lamb, then I would gladly accept, but at this point, I just don't know. William Blake could just as well been a spiritual person who believes in God and used Lamb as a general term of his creation. I don't know. But then, why would he capitalize Lamb? Doesn't capitalizing it give it more significance? Catholics capitalize all God terms, is that why he capitalized it then? -
I don't see how you can interpret the Lamb without making the clear religious reference to Jesus Christ in the final stanza. I may be biased because my choir sang this beautiful poem as an equally beautiful song at Christmas time (reference to the He became a little child part), but I still find that religious aspect quite apparent. The poem is asking "Who made thee?" The answer that Blake appears to be giving us is God made thee, Jesus Christ as another lamb, the sacrificial lamb. The beginning is a wondering how the beauty and simple innocence of the lamb, just the in the "Tyger" poem, Blake wonders about the strength and might of the tiger. Again, "who made thee?" and again the reference to God as the lamb. I can understand if someone chose not to see the religious references in the Tyger but I don't think there is anyway to avoid those references in "The Lamb." -
I still have a hard time not seeing a religious aspect in either of these poems as being part of their message. First, Blake capitalized the word lamb. This makes me believe that he is referring to Christ as a lamb, not just a lamb as a symbol of innocence. What are other possible reasons for the capitalization of this word? Also the poem, “The Lamb” also has many religious reflections. It reflects a belief of some sort of God or higher power that made creation. This doesn’t necessarily mean that it is referring to the Judeo-Christian God, but from the very beginning religious aspects are implied. The title itself makes me believe that the author was referring to a specific object or person as a lamb, possibly Christ. I have a very difficult time walking away from these poems and not seeing the aspects of religion. It is possible for others to read these poems not see them, but I can’t help but notice them. If Blake had unconventional opinions of religion why would be use the lamb to refer to the poem, “The Lamb,” which has obvious religious views. Is he just trying to poke fun at the religious message in the poem? -
I think that what Blake is doing is trying and succeeding at provoking people into thinking in religious terms. Both poems talk about wondering where and what brings life into being with one being about the beauty of the lamb and the other being about the ferociously powerful tiger. I think that Blake though isn't necessarily talking in religious terms, but is rather trying to grasp just how life comes into being and where it comes from. I think he just uses religious overtones as a tool to try and express his views at how such polar opposite creatures can come from the same God. What he is pointing out is that there exists tender creatures such as lambs, but also ferocious beasts like tigers who generally create havoc and destruction. I just think that in these poems Blake was trying to make sense of how a God who produces such beautiful creatures as Lambs can also produce such destructive animals as Tigers.-
Ok KRi I do see and understand your last point. I do agree that Blake is questioning how can God create two creature that are the complete opposites of each other, but I do think that there is more to the poem. I do think that their is an underlying religious them, and I believe that in some sense we can think of the Lamb as Jesus Christ. I mean Blake could simply be capitalizing the "L" in Lamb to place emphasis on the lamb in this poem, but I do believe it refers to Christ.
"For he calls himself a Lamb:
He is meek & he is mild,
He became a little child"
Could this possible be interpreted to mean something along the lines that God became a "little child" when Jesus was born meek and mild? Any other thoughts about this?
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I'm going to go ahead and say that there are unmistakeable religious aspects of The Lamb. I mean, come on, they're really hard to miss. I'm sure someone could interpret the poem in a thousand different ways, but honestly, "For he calls himself a lamb"? Come on, you can't miss that. However, I'm really not seeing a lot of the same religious aspects in The Tyger. The Tyger seems to focus more on figuring out what made the Tyger's attitude and how he lived his life. Blake mentions a lot of physical things that coud've made the tyger end up acting and looking the way he did, but he only mentions once or twice the idea that God or a higher being made the tyger. Also, even though the idea of a higher being is mentioned in The Tyger, I still don't see that as being the point of the poem. The Lamb seems to most definitely be asking if the lamb realized that it was made by God, but The Tyger seems to honestly be questioning how on earth anything could create something like the tyger at all.
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I made a post here but it somehow got deleted. If you want to see what I wrote, you can go to history and click on the changes that were made after I posted. -